IVs and Accessibility

SarasaKat

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If this is the wrong place to put it then smh @ self it's probably regular pokemon but oh well whomst know
So my friends and I were discussing competitive, and as a disclaimer, none of us are competitive battlers by any definition. But we were talking about how much of a grind it takes to get Pokemon with the correct IVs, to the point where there started to be a call to remove the mechanic entirely and have every pokemon be the same IV wise. The points for that are that you'll be looking to have 31IVs almost every time aside from a 0IV Speed stat for a Trick Room setup or something, and it just adds a lot of tedium and grind to the process of getting into competitive battling and it excludes new faces from joining the community. Conversely, some points were brought up that this tedium is part of the experience and feels fulfilling to the competitive community, and people who wanted to try out mons without breeding them could use Showdown.

So I guess the question is this: Should the mechanic of IVs be killed for accessibility's sake? And if not, is there a way to make it more accessible while still staying true to their nature as IVs? Of note is that there is a method in Gen 7 where you can raise IVs for a level 100 pokemon, but getting a pokemon that high and then having the resources needed to get that item can still be difficult.
 

Moxie

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Honestly IVs were probably a product of Gamefreak thinking: "What is something we can do to make each Pokemon RADICALLY different from each capture of the same species" and in a way I can respect that? They haven't really been dipping their toes into the competitive side of things and are thinking in a more broad term of not letting any two Pokemon be exactly the same without a bit of micromanaging (breeding)

Personally, after competitively battling for around 5ish years and having bred about 100+ competitively viable Pokemon in ORAS, I really think that IVs in general should be gone lol. People have to resort to Pokegen to realistically make teams on the fly and there's no way game freak would be a fan of that?? So might as well just remove the whole IV system since I doubt the general populace care about two Pokemon of the same species being the exact same.
 

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I think IVs/Nature hunting should be more accessible. Pokémon Let’s GO Pikachu and Eevee did that very well I think for the most part. It was the easiest it’s ever been to get a Pokémon of a specific nature, have at least 4 IVs, and grind them to 100 and use bottle caps on them. I think if they continue somehow on that path, then it’ll be easier for people to get into the competitive scene.

The 0 IV thing is the only part I’m like “What am I doing?”

But you could actually make Bottle Caps usable at Lv 50 and Gold Bottle Caps at 100. 100 for both is ridiculous.
 

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Most of the NPCs in-game who reference IVs do so in the context of "did you know that two Pokémon of the same species could have different stats?" along with natures and EVs. I'm pretty okay with them existing as far as in-game is concerned since you could play the game perfectly well without bothering to min/max everything, or even without knowing the systems exist in the first place. They're a cool treat for nerds like us, and for probably most people they mean nothing whatsoever.

Multiplayer is a different story. They're one of several reasons I actually feel better about people hacking competitive monsters than making them "legitimately" - seriously, you get one life and you could do anything else with it, and yet you chose to breed for IVs? - and coupled with the other complaints people have already levied against them it's seriously time for them to be automatically maxed out in competitive play, or just eliminated from the stat equation entirely. Honestly it was probably time for that, like, eleven years ago.
 

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I could understand this back in Gens III and IV, and I won't say getting IVs is easy yet by any means, but with each successive game they become less frustrating and more reasonable, I think. Gen VII (the Alola games at least) has SOS battles where you can get 4 IV Ditto very quickly for what they're worth, and it's stupendously easy with Mantine Surf to farm BP for the Power Items and other helpful breeding tools. As someone who'd never bred for a single IV in my life before, I was able to start completely from scratch and breed some good natured, 4 Egg Move, Hidden Ability, 5IV Eevee in about 4 hours total of work. Now that I've got the Ditto on hand in Ultra Sun that's something which never has to be done again and I could probably cut it down to a single hour, at least as far as the IVs are concerned. They've also made it stupendously easy in Alola to get your hands on the Oval Charm (you beat one dude in Heahea City once) which further cuts down the breeding time.

I'm still open to ideas of making them less of a hassle for the average comp player or even casual players to obtain, but I think getting rid of IVs entirely is a bad idea. There's a strategic element to them that also helps make Pokemon more diverse. If you get rid of them you also have to think about you'll handle the things controlled by IVs. For instance, would each individual Pokemon have its Hidden Power type assigned randomly? Breeding for one of those (1/16) could get as annoying as breeding for IVs pretty fast.
 

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There's a strategic element to them that also helps make Pokemon more diverse. If you get rid of them you also have to think about you'll handle the things controlled by IVs. For instance, would each individual Pokemon have its Hidden Power type assigned randomly? Breeding for one of those (1/16) could get as annoying as breeding for IVs pretty fast.
Is there, though? Hidden Power could be attached to something else, like the Personality Value or whatever, or even to something that you have direct control over, imagine if they brought back Poffins or Apricorns or made an analogue of some sort.

The only other case I can think of where IVs of 31 would be disadvantageous is Trick Room users and the very rare case where you want a Psychic type to be less vulnerable to Foul Play, and I don't think dropping Alakazam a tier and making Trick Room sets slightly more uncommon than they already are is much of a downside compared to . . . getting rid of IVs.
 

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There's a strategic element to them that also helps make Pokemon more diverse. If you get rid of them you also have to think about you'll handle the things controlled by IVs. For instance, would each individual Pokemon have its Hidden Power type assigned randomly? Breeding for one of those (1/16) could get as annoying as breeding for IVs pretty fast.
Is there, though? Hidden Power could be attached to something else, like the Personality Value or whatever, or even to something that you have direct control over, imagine if they brought back Poffins or Apricorns or made an analogue of some sort.

The only other case I can think of where IVs of 31 would be disadvantageous is Trick Room users and the very rare case where you want a Psychic type to be less vulnerable to Foul Play, and I don't think dropping Alakazam a tier and making Trick Room sets slightly more uncommon than they already are is much of a downside compared to . . . getting rid of IVs.
Even the personality value is something you have no control over that would have to be randomly bred; giving a direct method to influence Hidden Power type would be the only way to go.

It's not just Psychic types; anything that's not using its Attack stat would want to minimize that IV to reduce damage from Foul Play as well as confusion and Struggle. I've also seen it done where players will slightly manipulate the HP IV to give their Pokemon a more efficient, effective total for healing, Substitute, Belly Drum, and things like that.

On the whole I really don't see why we ought to get rid of IVs. They're of no concern to casual players, and as for those who have taken it upon themselves to do competitive, well, that's just part of the deal. It's already radically easier to work with IVs than it was even two generations ago.
 

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It's not just Psychic types; anything that's not using its Attack stat would want to minimize that IV to reduce damage from Foul Play as well as confusion and Struggle. I've also seen it done where players will slightly manipulate the HP IV to give their Pokemon a more efficient, effective total for healing, Substitute, Belly Drum, and things like that.
Attaching the hidden power type is a dumb idea even if we weren't talking about making the game easier to get into, I dunno why I said that. Anyway—

It's worth mentioning that for every player who minimizes their HP IV to take a Foul Play better means that another player's attack is doing slightly less damage, so it's a zero sum game - a nerfed Foul Play doesn't make the game any better or worse, it just changes the meta slightly.

On the whole I really don't see why we ought to get rid of IVs. They're of no concern to casual players, and as for those who have taken it upon themselves to do competitive, well, that's just part of the deal. It's already radically easier to work with IVs than it was even two generations ago.
They could be made as easy as effort values, but at that point, does any game need two systems that function the same way? :/
 

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It's worth mentioning that for every player who minimizes their HP IV to take a Foul Play better means that another player's attack is doing slightly less damage, so it's a zero sum game - a nerfed Foul Play doesn't make the game any better or worse, it just changes the meta slightly.
Not sure I follow this part. As to the bolded line in particular, that nerfed Foul Play which doesn't make the game any better or worse is coming directly from changing the IVs, so is having them around not any better or worse?

On the whole I really don't see why we ought to get rid of IVs. They're of no concern to casual players, and as for those who have taken it upon themselves to do competitive, well, that's just part of the deal. It's already radically easier to work with IVs than it was even two generations ago.
They could be made as easy as effort values, but at that point, does any game need two systems that function the same way? :/
Well obviously not, but that's why they're different in the first place. If you change the IV system so much it's unrecognizable you may as well have gotten rid of it in the first place. It brings us back to where we started. I think this argument will sooner or later begin going in circles; some of us are annoyed by IVs and some of us don't mind them. But I also think that's one of the cool things about Pokemon: depending on how much you get into it, or where you want to set the bar, players of all levels can sort of "pick" your difficulty. Again, I admit, there's less of a choice for competitive battlers, and I agree that there are still measures to be taken which could make IVs more accessible.
 

SarasaKat

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I feel like what makes IVs different than EVs is the difficulty in changing them. I know grinding mons isn't really great amounts of fun, but the few times I've bred pokemon, I feel like I've really put a lot of care into them, and it's something I'm actually kind of proud of. Yeah, it's tedious, but it's almost like a rite of passage in my mind's eye. When you go battle someone else, there's a mutual understanding that you both spent a lot of time and care to get where you are, and I think that's special.

Maybe instead, we could have something kind of Showdown-esque in game? You can rent out Pokemon with specific movesets, IVs, EVs, and such for certain amounts of in-game currency for a day, and you can test out that mon in battle tree and online and stuff. And if you like it enough, you can invest the time into it to make your own, permanent Pokemon in your own party.
 

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On the whole I really don't see why we ought to get rid of IVs. They're of no concern to casual players, and as for those who have taken it upon themselves to do competitive, well, that's just part of the deal. It's already radically easier to work with IVs than it was even two generations ago.
Sorry if I'm cherry-picking this. I only skimmed through this thread and this paragraph stuck out to me. I personally don't agree with this because as a casual player, I always found it difficult to just jump into competitive, and breeding for IVs was always what discouraged me. Even though it's much much easier to get the desired IVs now than ever, I feel like it's still a wall separating competitive and casual players. Granted, it's not the most difficult wall.

I mentioned before that I really don't like how the IV system works because it often favors individual pokemon who are objectively better in a stat over others, which I feel doesn't send the right message to Pokemon players. I also came up with a suggestion that instead of influencing a pokemon's overall stat, IVs would influence their EV growth. For example, a pokemon with 0 IVs in Speed would just earn EVs as normal from battling a Zubat. If they had 1 IV in Speed, they would get one bonus EV in Speed, 2 IVs means two bonus EVs and so on. This might require an overhaul of the current system for various reasons, but the point is pokemon who are more talented in a stat will have an easier time training in that stat. Pokemon who are less talented can still get the same results by training harder. What's more, each pokemon can still be individual.
 
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Typhlosion

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On the whole I really don't see why we ought to get rid of IVs. They're of no concern to casual players, and as for those who have taken it upon themselves to do competitive, well, that's just part of the deal. It's already radically easier to work with IVs than it was even two generations ago.
Sorry if I'm cherry-picking this. I only skimmed through this thread and this paragraph stuck out to me. I personally don't agree with this because as a casual player, I always found it difficult to just jump into competitive, and breeding for IVs was always what discouraged me. Even though it's much much easier to get the desired IVs now than ever, I feel like it's still a wall separating competitive and casual players. Granted, it's not the most difficult wall.
I understand your point. I'll be the first to admit that I do not battle on cartridge whatsoever because breeding and raising all those Pokemon is a grind. That's why I was so happy when I first found Showdown! and I realized I could learn to be good at competitive and have all the IVs I could ask for in the blink of an eye. But I think there's also a balance there with the reward and the dedication that Kat mentioned. Real-life cartridge players like those who go to Worlds are hella respected for what they had to do to get there, and I was HELLA proud of myself when I was able to give smoky a near-perfect 5 IV Eevee last Christmas.

I mentioned before that I really don't like how the IV system works because it often favors individual pokemon who are objectively better in a stat over others, which I feel doesn't send the right message to Pokemon players. I also came up with a suggestion that instead of influencing a pokemon's overall stat, IVs would influence their EV growth. For example, a pokemon with 0 IVs in Speed would just earn EVs as normal from battling a Zubat. If they had 1 IV in Speed, they would get one bonus EV in Speed, 2 IVs means two bonus EVs and so on. This might require an overhaul of the current system for various reasons, but the point is pokemon who are more talented in a stat will have an easier time training in that stat. Pokemon who are less talented can still get the same results by training harder. What's more, each pokemon can still be individual.
That's a creative solution. Of course, to really capitalize on that system you'd have to know the exact value of all the IVs, which somewhat takes away from the stated intention of being able to see Pokemon as "real, living creatures."
 

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As to the bolded line in particular, that nerfed Foul Play which doesn't make the game any better or worse is coming directly from changing the IVs, so is having them around not any better or worse?
Do you have an Alakazam and your opponent used Foul Play on it? You want your Attack stat to be as low as possible. Does your opponent have an Alakazam and you use Foul Play on it? You want their Attack stat to be as high as possible. If you get rid of IVs and make everyone's Attack stat slightly higher than they would be if you had IV control, equal numbers of people will win and lose. The game as a whole doesn't become better or worse.

Real-life cartridge players like those who go to Worlds are hella respected for what they had to do to get there, and I was HELLA proud of myself when I was able to give smoky a near-perfect 5 IV Eevee last Christmas.
They're [IVs] one of several reasons I actually feel better about people hacking competitive monsters than making them "legitimately" - seriously, you get one life and you could do anything else with it, and yet you chose to breed for IVs?
I suspect we don't agree on this. I (used to) do this, and it felt terrible. I traded most of four of my teenage years for a video game?
 
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Typhlosion

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As to the bolded line in particular, that nerfed Foul Play which doesn't make the game any better or worse is coming directly from changing the IVs, so is having them around not any better or worse?
Do you have an Alakazam and your opponent used Foul Play on it? You want your Attack stat to be as low as possible. Does your opponent have an Alakazam and you use Foul Play on it? You want their Attack stat to be as high as possible. If you get rid of IVs and make everyone's Attack stat slightly higher than they would be if you had IV control, equal numbers of people will win and lose. The game as a whole doesn't become better or worse.
Ah, now I understand, thank you. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I see both sides of the argument, but as someone who simply doesn't mind IVs there's not a whole lot more I can say.
 
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