Knocking on Heaven's Gate - A Mafia-Less Mafia Game - OVER - Cult Wins

[Godot]

You're right Isa, it doesn't help to speculate on roles. And there's a fair chance this day phase will pass without incident.

 

[Typhlosion]

nothing happened to me last night

To answer Lycoris's questions:

1. I have read several old mafia games before, yes, but I don't typically do it while playing. If I'm going to read anything I would keep re-reading the current game for clues, and the hosts don't really like us focusing on old meta anyway.
2. If this were a game that started on a Night phase I would definitely want to lynch, but since this is a "day 0" of sorts I think it's less important. Plus, beginning with only two scum out of 11 players total, the odds of a mislynch are very high. We shall see.

I would like to add a couple questions of my own:
--How much Mafia experience do you have?
--If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?

My answers:
--This is around my sixth forum mafia game, and I've played a couple times irl at parties too.
--I would say LuluRina. I get it, she's most likely new and that's fine, but she has not contributed one single word outside of answering Lycoris's questions, and even those don't help to generate discussion that would get us the sort of info required for lynching.

Can you clarify what you mean with "less important"? So just because there have been no night actions there's no point in lynching?

I agree with what you said about the odds being against us, but mafia is not just about math.

I honestly forget, but at least five. I'm not an expert, but I know my way around.

You.

I find it interesting that you picked a new player, and that you base your answer on early contributions. You said we could answer randomly or based on gut feeling, but your answer seems like neither. Besides, there were other people who hadn't even posted once (me included).

I didn't say there's no point in lynching. But since Marriland mafia is historically very night-heavy, and we don't have any night actions yet, it might be harder to come up with the sort of conclusive evidence that would make me eager to lynch.

You're right, I didn't answer randomly. I said what I did because I understand there are a lot of new and/or inexperienced players in the game who might not know what I was asking for, but that doesn't mean I personally am going to throw a dart at the wall. LuluRina's minimal play struck me as a bit off, and I pointed that out. In a game this young, I didn't think there'd be any point to calling someone scummy who hadn't posted at all. Their only reason for not posting was probably that they hadn't seen the thread yet.


I think speculating on a role list is not important right now. Actually, I'd recommend to not do it, because it won't help town at the moment. I recommend to save that for later, when we at least have more information.[/QUOTE]Haha...oops. Posted that before I saw what you said.

 

[Typhlosion]

EBWOP

I think speculating on a role list is not important right now. Actually, I'd recommend to not do it, because it won't help town at the moment. I recommend to save that for later, when we at least have more information.

Haha...oops. Posted that before I saw what you said.

 

[Mystical]

Actually, I'll ask.

@Vivid Stardust why are you interested on the rolelist so early? What are you trying to accomplish from the answers people give you? What are your thoughts about what they have said?

@Typhlosion fair enough about LuluRina. Also, well, what's done is done lol. Did figure you may not have read my post, and others may not have either, so I bolded my warning on that next post.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Ok, didn't expect this to have already started... So right now I have nothing to go on suspicion wise. I would like to know Isa's reasoning as to why discussing a roles list would help Cult more than Town though, as I personally can't see why that would be the case.

As for the questions, since everyone else has answered them already:

Do you read other Mafia games while playing?
Nope. Too much agro between players to willingly read unless I'm taking part.

Do you want to lynch on D1?
Hell no. Only Cult Leader and SK should be lynched, I see no way of narrowing down who those might be at this point with only their words. Once a Night has passed, not only will we have evidence, but the Cult will have another member, lowering the odds of us hitting town, and giving more info upon a cult members death, as we can see who they sided with and deduce the remaining members. Day 1 we have none of that. Just a shot in the dark, most likely at our own feet.

How much Mafia experience do you have?
Lots? Too many games to count, did badly at all of them, so skill-wise I'd say they most likely haven't helped.

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
Typhlosion, simply because most of the time that one who starts talking and helping the most is actually the bad guy, in media and Mafia alike. :P

 

[Vivid Stardust]

@Mystical I think it could help town to know what we have and what we don’t. If certain roles are in play, that affects how people play. For example, if we have a Doctor, some of the other town power roles can afford to play in a slightly more risky manner because they know they aren’t automatically going to die if they get outed, either because they are protected, or the killing party thinks the power roles are protected, regardless of whether they are or not. I also wanted to bring up the point about Vigilante/Gunsmith to help town with finding the Serial Killer, just in case anyone missed the mention of SK having an autovest.

I didn’t think about how knowing TPRs might help Cult, but that does make a little bit of sense. If the Cult figures out who has what role, they’ll try to recruit the TPRs. I don’t necessarily get how talking about role possibilities in itself will cause problems for town, though. Even if the Cult knows what TPRs are in play, they can’t do anything until they figure out who has what role, right? If you want to explain why you think discussing possible TPRs will help Cult, I’d be willing to listen (or read, as it were).

I am focused on content for people’s posts, by the way. I know I was focused on the number of posts earlier, but as you said, quality is more important than quantity (although quantity can be important). I’ll probably post some sort of reads list with quotes either later on day one or near the beginning of day two, depending on how things go posting-wise.

 

[Luke Strife]

Good evening folks, apologies for the delay in starting here. I see the game started at 4am my time, and then I've been preoccupied with health concerns most of the day. Even now it took me about an hour to read this thread (and taking me a while longer to write and proof-read this) thanks to my stupid-ass eyeball giving me problems.

Do you read other Mafia games while playing?
-Not while playing, no. I have read a few games I've not been a part of, though. Can't say it's been easy to always follow what's been going on, but it's interesting stuff nonetheless!

Do you want to lynch on D1?
-I would probably say not. Not enough information to go on right now, but who knows when someone will just drop themselves in it, so to speak. Plus, as have others have said, Marriland Mafia seems to tend towards being more Night-based, so I feel like most would want to keep their cards close to their chest for the time being.

How much Mafia experience do you have?
-Not very much. I've played one other forum game before this one. I wasn't very good at it. I've played a few One Night Ultimate Werewolf games in person though, those are quite entertaining even if I've been crap at those too. ;D

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
-Hard to say. From what I've seen, the most likely players to be viewed as Town tend to follow something like a bell-curve. The most talkative and the least talkative of the players always seem to be the most accused. Everyone is on edge at the moment, having accusations thrown at someone tends to put them on the defensive and hyper analyse what the accuser is saying. Food for thought.

As for discussing TPRs, as with what Vivid said above, it's not like we'd also be giving Cult the names of the people in said roles. It's fun to speculate what may be in play, but I don't think it'd be the same as giving information away. Besides, at the start of a game like this where there's only the single Cultist to begin with, it makes sense to help the majority, who are Town. The Cult Leader will be a lot more in the dark than the collective Town is, at least for the moment.

 

[Vivid Stardust]

@Mystical Also, to answer the other two questions you asked....

I want to try and figure out roles early so town can strategize on how to take out the Cult and SK. If we know we have investigative roles, we can get information about who our enemies might be. If we have Mason Leader, we need to figure out who town is ASAP so we can prevent cult recruitment. If we have Vigilante, Gunsmith, or Jailor, we can get rid of the Serial Killer more easily, and Cult too. If we have a Mayor, we need to get protection on them ASAP so the Cult can’t recruit them and swing the votes. And so on.

From what I’ve read so far people seem to agree we have at least one role each out of the following trios:
Sheriff/Doctor/Weak Doctor
Jailor/Gunsmith/Vigilante

Typhlosion has also been speculating that we could have a Mason Leader and/or a Bodyguard, and that certain roles probably aren’t in the game due to swing power (Gunsmith, Mayor) or because the role is pointless (Deputy). Nobody’s been speculating on the other roles much from what I can see.

I think that everyone is right about the trios, and Typhlosion has a point about the Mason Leader being possible in the game. I disagree that Mayor wouldn’t be in the game due to swing power; I think that the Mayor would be a strategic role to place in this specific game because that role is publicly revealed, and the Mayor has to prevent their own recruitment by playing in a way that won’t attract the Cult’s attention.

If you need clarification on anything I said, let me know!

 

[Mystical]

To clarify: I meant that focusing too much or only on TPR speculation won't get us very far. I think there are other things we can focus on, other questions we can ask. And a cult leader will also benefit from the brainstorming because they can strategize around it. And we'll know eventually. But I guess it won't hurt to kind of share ideas.

I'm going to reply to some things, and I'll use this color to differentiate from what others hace said.

From @Vivid Stardust, post: 44317

Spoiler: Role speculation

My guess is that we have at least one of Jailor/Gunsmith/Vigilante. My reasoning is that town needs to be able to get rid of multiple people per day/night cycle, especially in a cult game, and town also needs to be able to gather information about who’s who.

Fair enough. Though only Jailor can really gather information. Vigilante/gunsmith can only gather information during the day and then use their actions.

Gunsmith should only hand out a gun to someone they are sure is town, and they can only really reach this conclusion during day.

Vigilante should only shoot someone they are very suspicious of. Otherwise they are wasting a shot and hindering town.

Jailor allows for information gathering as well as the possibility of killing either the cult or the Serial Killer, and Gunsmith and Vigilante allows for multiple opportunities for town to hit cult/Serial Killer.

In a way, Gunsmith and Vigilante are informative roles too. The Serial Killer has an autovest according to the rules post, so if someone shoots the SK, the SK won’t die. Seeing as the only other way for a shot to fail is if the person is in jail, if someone gets shot, but doesn’t die, that person is almost certainly the SK. I don’t think we have all three though. I have no clue what other roles might be in the game.

To clarify: someone who received a gun has to shoot during the day. So if they shoot a serial killer, as far as I'm aware, they will die, because autovests only work at night.

Also, I don't think using vigilante/gunsmith to check on serial killer is such a good idea unless they have a good idea on who this is.

Also, it is important to mention that a Jailor/vigilante/gunsmith, other than possibly goofing up by themselves (it has happened before, on all three cases) can be turned against town if culted.

As Typhlosion said, it’d be a bit weird to have duplicate roles in such a small game.

Agreed. Though I wouldn't discount sheriff/deputy right away.

None of y’all gave me an answer about what roles you think are involved.

And I honestly don't know about Bio. Her posts I wouldn't say are scummy, yet I wouldn't place as a town read either
She's more like a neutral with a slight town lean.

Give me an example, please. From what she's posted what specifically sounds neutral with slight town? You can quité specific posts.

I'm not sure if I can trust Ben. He could be writing posts that read like town to conceal his true alignment. I'm not sure one way or the other, but it's a possibility.

This is true about everyone, though. This is why we interact and ask questions: to get a better read out of each other.

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
Possibly Biohazard. If not because her theme is the most menacing out of the lot, then because actively communing and encouraging such right away is intéressant.

I don't get what you mean in the bolded statement. Please clarify. What is she encouraging? What is she doing that differentiates her from other players?

Hard to say. Only thing I know for certain is that I'm town. I need more evidence before I can make a guess about the rest of ya.

Well, instead of waiting for more evidence, you can interact and ask questions yourself.

Spoiler: TPR speculation

I don’t have much experience with TPRs, but here are my theories which ones are in the game and what benefits they have.

Doctor - The Doctor heals a person and can help benefit the Town, because a Townie survives thanks to the Doctor.

Yes. But they only protect from the serial killer. (And vig, I suppose)

Sheriff – Sheriff is an informative role, due to its investigating nature. Sheriff can choose someone to investigate and then they will be notified of the person’s faction.

In a game like this, I think sheriff helps a lot with information. As long as they're not culted, but even then, they can help dig out the SK.

Vigilante – The Serial Killer has an autovest, and cannot be shooted, so the Vigilante shoots someone who is a SK, we can know if the person is a SK.

Mhm. But like I said when analyzing Stardust's post, we can't rely on vigilante to do this.

Gunsmith – Gunsmith can make a gun for someone. So if the person who gets the gun from the Gunsmith, and shoots at someone who is SK, it is known that the person is a SK.

Again, don't rely on this.

Jailer – Since the Serial Killer cannot be shooted, and the Jailer can hold someone in the jail. They can choose to execute the person or not. It’s a good informative role because if the Jailer decides to kill someone and if the person is SK and gets killed by the Jailer. Same goes for the Cult Leader killed by the Jailer.

1. A jailer can also freely question whomever they decide to jail.
2. The jailer can also potentially help protect someone both from being attacked and from being culted.
3. A jailer doesn't necessarily have to kill whomever they culted, but yes, if they decide to execute someone, we'll know the executed's alignment right away.

The weak doctor bit has already been clarified, so I'll skip that.

According to the role list, the Watcher and Tracker function like Invest or spy.

Spoiler: A clarification

You mean the ToS roles? If so, no. An invest gives possible roles a person could be and a spy gets anonymous message from the mafia. A watcher sees the people visiting a target. A tracker follows a target to see who they visit.

Hah, I still forgot to answer Stardust's roles question, whoops.

Six of the roles are confirmed for us: 4 Citizens, 1 Serial Killer, 1 Cult Leader. No need to worry about them. I've already said that I don't think Varhii would put any "hidden" Citizens in with the other five roles, just because...why. So let's look at the power roles.

Spoiler: More thorough speculation

1. Doctor/Weak Doctor -- One thing to think about is that there's only one evil killing faction in this game, which at least in my experience is a bit strange. There's a chance Varhii wouldn't give us any healing roles at all, actually, if we only have to deal with one potential kill a night. I suppose there could be a Vig taking shots too, but in a game this compressed, I certainly can't see us having both a "strong" Doc and Weak Doc. Agreed.
2. Sheriff/Deputy -- No reason why we couldn't have a Sheriff. However, a deputy is absolutely useless without a Sheriff as well, and I don't think we'd have 40% of our power roles tied up to use both. Sheriff maybe, deputy no. I actually wouldn't discount it, like I said, but they work as a citizen until the sheriff dies, so yeah, I'd say it's not very likely.
3. Bodyguard -- Since there is only one killing scum faction, playing this right could automatically make it nothing but town vs cult. From a game balance faction, I don't believe there would be a Bodyguard at all unless there is also a Vig. Lol, imagine a bodyguard actually killing a vig. That's would be sad. If we have a doc there's less chance of bg.
4. Tracker/Watcher -- Hard to say with these. Since they're both informative roles that kind of function as inverses of each other, again I doubt we have both of these roles. Fair enough.
5. Jailor -- A possibility. Could be nice for rooting out Cult.
6. Commuter/Dancer/Bus Driver -- Who knows tbh. I doubt we have a BD, but maybe. A dancer can stop the cult leader from culting, and SK from killing, so maybe. A commuter can avoid cult/killing, so also maybe.
7. Gunsmith/Mayor -- I don't know whether or not Varhii rearranged the game balance after seeing the final number of players. If he did, which is likely, I doubt we would have either one of these. Three votes or extra kills in a game with only 11 players seems like way too much game-swinging power. Fair enough. Having either is risky, especially since a Mayor can be culted if they reveal before the cult leader dies. Maybe they can help counter out the remaining cult, though.
8. Vigilante -- ahh no please not this anything but this not again lol For some reason I feel like there's a good chance we do have one of these in the game. It would make things very interesting if they get pulled into the cult.
9. Mason Leader -- Hmm, my gut says we have one of these too. In a game this heavily revolving around a cult, it would be a nice anti-cult balancer. Yes. It could work out nicely and give citizens a perk.

@Vivid Stardust all right, thank you for answering.

 

[Felly]

Whew, this escalated quickly between my last post and now. Forgive me if I'm slow to post -- I work nights and while I check the forums periodically throughout the day on my phone, I'm not too fond of doing lengthy replies until I'm on my computer. (And even then, I don't typically check Marilland till right before I go to bed.) But hello, I'm here, I promise I'm not disappearing on y'all!

To answer the questions Ben tossed out:
How much Mafia experience do you have?
I used to play Werewolf a lot with an IRC bot when I was younger, but more recently, I've done Town of Salem on and off. In terms of forum Mafia, it's been a while since I last played. I actually can't remember the last forum game I played because it's been that long. xD (I was in EiM, but that doesn't really count since it wasn't discussion heavy like this one.)

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
Mmmm, I'd have to go with Foolhard because he seemed like he was going after Biohazard for encouraging discussion, which I feel like is super important in this game overall. I know some people may want to lay low early on and let others take charge in the beginning to see how people react, but regardless, discussion is still important because without it, we can't figure out who's who in this game.

I don't have too much to say on the power roles discussion, in part because I haven't really thought too much about it and in part because like others have said, it doesn't seem like it's too important right now.

 

[SAF]

Another questions, huh? I did read them hours ago, but couldn't answer right away. Sorry.

How much Mafia experience do you have?
EIM aside, this is my first time. I did read previous Mafia games, though.

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
Umm, don't think I can answer that either. I'm no good at random guesses, y'see.

 

[Rainbow Rocket Grunt]

And I honestly don't know about Bio. Her posts I wouldn't say are scummy, yet I wouldn't place as a town read either
She's more like a neutral with a slight town lean.

Give me an example, please. From what she's posted what specifically sounds neutral with slight town? You can quité specific posts.

Well if you're looking for specific posts...

I've also got some questions.

Do you read other Mafia games while playing?

Do you want to lynch on D1?

@Typhlosion Even though I said that it is way too early, I'm going to do this and gonna take Moonwatcher as a wild guess. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Regarding what you said about duplicate TPRs, I don't think there are any duplicate TPR roles and I believe that there are five unique ones. If there would be any duplicates, the game would be unbalanced.

Who do you think is town in the game?

These posts show her contributing to town, just not as much as Ben

@Vivid Stardust Going through the Azurilland is a pain. Since we're playing a cult game, I'm currently reading through a mafia game that has cult (on Azurilland), as I've never played that sort before.

Since people have answered the questions as well, here are my own answers.

- I read through other games very often. Reading helps me what I should to do in a mafia game and it's a habit that has improved me when it comes to playing mafia.

- I'm going to lynch on D1. Why? Regardless of how many players show up, lynching is important because information is very important.

Answering Typhlosion's questions.

How much Mafia experience do you have?

This is my 2nd mafia game on Marriland and I've played few games on Mafia Universe.

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?

It is way too early to tell who is scum tbh. The game just started today and only few people posted in.

Her answers to these questions, while mine of the first two questions are the opposite of hers, are something that I understand perfectly. Also I like how she didn't want to list anyone as scum since it was too early to tell.

The reason why I don't want her to be on my trs at the moment are because, while she has some good posts and is the one who posted the most, her posts have been short and, honestly, most of the time she's just been asking questions. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just that I don't see any substance in those.

...welp now I have two trs and ironically its the two people who questioned me about my decisions xD

 

[Godot]

Yeah, I don't know jack about TOS. I knew the role names and assumed how they functioned. Perhaps I shouldn't assume things about a version of the game I've never played.

 

[Typhlosion]

Do you want to lynch on D1?
Hell no. Only Cult Leader and SK should be lynched, I see no way of narrowing down who those might be at this point with only their words. Once a Night has passed, not only will we have evidence, but the Cult will have another member, lowering the odds of us hitting town, and giving more info upon a cult members death, as we can see who they sided with and deduce the remaining members. Day 1 we have none of that. Just a shot in the dark, most likely at our own feet.

Do you want to lynch on D1?
-I would probably say not. Not enough information to go on right now, but who knows when someone will just drop themselves in it, so to speak. Plus, as have others have said, Marriland Mafia seems to tend towards being more Night-based, so I feel like most would want to keep their cards close to their chest for the time being.

I'm still not saying a Day 1 lynch has to happen, but I'm not a fan of this mentality for justifying a lack of action. Ideally, Mafia is supposed to be exactly about "narrowing down who those might be at this point with only their words." Night actions are a fun helpful bonus, but even with that, they're hardly guaranteed to give us conclusive evidence about who to lynch. If we wait until D2 to lynch and the cult leader successfully recruits, with a ratio of 8:2:1 town:cult:sk the odds are still much better of us hitting Town, and at that point the numbers are already beginning their shift toward cult's favor. We can't rely on waiting for someone to drop themselves in it.

If you had to pick one person as scum right now, even on gut instinct or a wild guess, who would it be?
Mmmm, I'd have to go with Foolhard because he seemed like he was going after Biohazard for encouraging discussion, which I feel like is super important in this game overall. I know some people may want to lay low early on and let others take charge in the beginning to see how people react, but regardless, discussion is still important because without it, we can't figure out who's who in this game.

Hmm, I think this might be worth pursuing. Foolhard has made one post so far this game, to answer my questions, but didn't answer the ones from Lycoris. I also asked him to explain his reasoning (post #55) and we haven't heard anything back. Let's crank up the pressure on this guy. /vote Foolhard

 

[Luke Strife]

I am uncertain where you took from my words that I implied wanting to do nothing. I even went onto say later in the same post that discussion is a good thing. I specifically said right now because the question was posed as the game started, rather than closer towards the end of the day.

The reason why I don't want her to be on my trs at the moment are because, while she has some good posts and is the one who posted the most, her posts have been short and, honestly, most of the time she's just been asking questions. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just that I don't see any substance in those.

...welp now I have two trs and ironically its the two people who questioned me about my decisions xD

What's trs?

 

[Godot]

That's a very good question, Luke. What is trs, Lulu?

 

[Mystical]

Townreads. She's saying that she thinks both Typhlosion and I are town.

And fair enough, Lulu. I wasn't doubting you, fwiw, just wanted a more concrete idea of what you meant.

 

[Godot]

Personally, I don't like writing long posts if all I'm doing is speculating. So long responses here might not something you see from me specifically. Maybe a sentence, or two, or three per post, but not much more.

 

[Mystical]

Foolhard still has to appear and we're starting the last third of day one. @Foolhard what are your thoughts on everything so far?

 

[Moonwatcher]

I'm still not saying a Day 1 lynch has to happen, but I'm not a fan of this mentality for justifying a lack of action. Ideally, Mafia is supposed to be exactly about "narrowing down who those might be at this point with only their words." Night actions are a fun helpful bonus, but even with that, they're hardly guaranteed to give us conclusive evidence about who to lynch. If we wait until D2 to lynch and the cult leader successfully recruits, with a ratio of 8:2:1 town:cult:sk the odds are still much better of us hitting Town, and at that point the numbers are already beginning their shift toward cult's favor. We can't rely on waiting for someone to drop themselves in it.

This is hardly a normal mafia game. "Lack of action" is not a problem here, as the alternative is actively harming the Town. Yes, the cult will gain an advantage, but lynching a townie would tip the sclaes even more in favour of the Cult. I'm not saying that night actions will give us conclusive evidence, but they will give us something more to go on than just shooting at random, like it would be if we lynched now.